I am angry.
I am angry about a 'game' called Grand Theft Auto IV. I am angry because this 'game' romanticizes, decontextualizes and glorifies male violence against women and against other men. It portrays women as the sex class (willing and available) and men as autonomous agents with full subjectivity (as long as they are hegemonicly masculine). I am angry because this is the result of living in a patriarchal, ethnocentric, xenophobic, homophobic and, yes I'll say it, woman hating culture. I cannot understand this 'game' as anything other than that.
I am scared to live in a culture where this is considered a viable form of entertainment. The protagonist of Grand Theft Auto IV, Niko Bellic, fucks women, seemingly all prostituted women, and then brutally murders them immediately afterward if he so desires. Bear in mind, of course, that 'he' is controlled by the player. Young men all over the country (and beyond) will learn that the value of women is their capacity to provide male orgasm. That is all.
I am angry that abuses of women are not taken seriously; are not seen as major social problems. In this culture of domination the murder of a prostituted/raped woman cannot be taken too seriously. Yet in video game culture it is not seen as a problem. Stamp an "M for Mature" rating on it and move on.
It seems worth examining the otherness of Bellic here as well. Admittedly, I am no expert in gaming or gaming culture, I have only played a few in my life and have never been amused by their seeming androcentrism, exclusivity and extraordinary violence. Bellic is a Bosnian immigrant in search of "The American Dream." I think it is relevant that in a game produced and developed by plenty of white men, Bellic is depicted as 'foreign' and/or not white. It enables white American men to play the game and distance themselves from the extraordinary violence that they are enacting upon women and other men. "Oh American men do not murder, rape or pay for sex!"
In a time when immigration is such a heated issue, Grand Theft Auto IV must be placed within its proper cultural context. It is not an accident that Bellic is a violent, over sexed, thuggish immigrant.
36 comments:
I watched my housemate play this the other night and I agree completely. I've long know that GTA is horribly misogynistic but I was shocked to see the main character was eastern European and, as you say, very purposefully so.
I don't know anything about Grand Theft Auto, but I listened to a discussion about it on NPR yesterday. People claim that it's this big coup for the gaming world, and that it's so thorough and life-like and he graphics are the best ever and blah, blah, blah.....
The apologists were all claiming that the M rating made all the violence ok, as though somehow no-one under 18 will ever get his hands on it, which is utter bs, of course.
I'm worried that if it is that realistic and the "world" of the game is that complete, it will be a lot harder for people to separate the game from reality. Some might be able to just play for the sake of the excitement and not let it affect them, but I'm going to guess that the majority won't.
Aggression and mysogyny, here we go....ugh...
I really wish people would do a little research before criticizing this game, especially since if there is plenty to criticize if they just did a bit of damn research.
First of all, stop calling it a 'game' in quotations. You not liking its subject matter doesn't make it any less of a game. I don't call a movie I hate a 'movie.' It does make you look like a pretentious jerk though.
Now to address your other points one by one:
1. I am angry because this 'game' romanticizes, decontextualizes and glorifies male violence against women and against other men.
Well, at least you mentioned that it has violence against men too.
I think playing up the violence against women aspect is a cheap shot. It romanticizes violence...period. Women are rarely singled out as targets in this game and never because they are women.
2. It portrays women as the sex class (willing and available) and men as autonomous agents with full subjectivity (as long as they are hegemonicly masculine).
This is partially on target. But while women are portrayed in an overly sexual manner, the men are portrayed as overly violent. If you are arguing that the game only views women as women if they are engaging in submissive sex acts, then you must also say that the game says a man must be violent in order to be a real man. Neither are good.
2. I am scared to live in a culture where this is considered a viable form of entertainment.
Don't know what to tell you there. There's worse than GTA out there, sorry to burst your bubble.
3. The protagonist of Grand Theft Auto IV, Niko Bellic, fucks women, seemingly all prostituted women, and then brutally murders them immediately afterward if he so desires.
Enough with the killing prostitutes shtick. Yes, you can have sex with hookers in GTA. You can also murder anyone on the street. Ergo, you can kill hookers. Reading any more into it is kind of silly. Also, whenever you do have sex with a hooker Niko immediately says to himself what a disgusting, worthless scumbag he is. It's not a rewarding experience.
Furthermore, Niko Belic actually goes on several dates in the game, and often they do not end in sex. He never forces himself on anyone and the sex with these women is always consensual. Conversely, if the gamer treats the women like shit they stop talking to you. Saying that Niko only has sex with prostitutes is wrong.
4. Young men all over the country (and beyond) will learn that the value of women is their capacity to provide male orgasm.
Any guy who plays this game and comes to that conclusion is already fucked in the head. If anyone sees the hookers and strippers in GTAIV and is then enticed to pursue them in real life, they're going to be in a for a real letdown when they discover just how gross, sickening and depressing both those worlds usually are. The idea that young men will take away any ideas like this from this game is an insult to the intelligence of the human race.
5. I am angry that abuses of women are not taken seriously; are not seen as major social problems. In this culture of domination the murder of a prostituted/raped woman cannot be taken too seriously. Yet in video game culture it is not seen as a problem. Stamp an "M for Mature" rating on it and move on.
Wow...um...wow. Get a grip. Yes, violence against women (or anyone for that matter) is wrong and should be taken seriously. But the idea that this game encourages it or even dismisses violence against women in the real world is about as accurate as saying that it will cause an increase in violence against pigeons (a sidequest in the game is to shoot pigeons, much like a scavenger hunt).
6. It seems worth examining the otherness of Bellic here as well. Admittedly, I am no expert in gaming or gaming culture, I have only played a few in my life and have never been amused by their seeming androcentrism, exclusivity and extraordinary violence...Bellic is depicted as 'foreign' and/or not white. It enables white American men to play the game and distance themselves from the extraordinary violence that they are enacting upon women and other men. "Oh American men do not murder, rape or pay for sex!"
Okay, nearly everything you say here is flat out wrong, and there's so much misinformation and all-out insanity here I don't even know where to begin.
First of all, not all games feature "androcentrism, exclusivity and extraordinary violence." Pick up a game of Sonic The Hedgehog, or better yet the genius Portal (which features a strong, intelligent female protagonist) to see the error in that statement.
As far as the "otherness" of Belic, it's only an issue in that both his past and the fact that he is not familar with America are major story points. The past three GTA games have featured American protagonists who were all just as violent as Niko, and Tommy Vercetti, the main character of GTA: Vice City was more violent, misanthropic and just plain morally repugnant than Niko ever could be. Niko's actually a fairly complex character.
Your argument that the game uses foreign "otherness" as an excuse for violent acts is without base and unequivocally wrong. Like it or not, there's nothing Niko does in this game that is worse than anything the American characters in previous games have done in the past.
It's amazingly obvious that your knowledge of this game, and gaming in general is based almost entirely on what others have told/shown you. Because throughout your poorly written diatribe holier-than-though manifesto you fail to mention the biggest point about the GTA series, which is that they are all broad satires, poking fun at everything from our country's fascination with gangland culture, reality TV and even the music industry. If you took the time out to play the game you might find out that there is some pretty bold pro-feminist commentary in it. For example, there's a radio commercial in GTAIV for a reality show called "America's Next Top Hooker" which brilliantly lambastes our culture's obsession with reality television in a way that also exposes the outright sexism that seems to run rampant in it.
All that being said, there is plenty to dislike about GTAIV. I am uncomfortable with some of the racial stereotypes in the game, and the fact that all the game's homosexual characters seem to be out of a 1970s sitcom also bothers me. However, I am also aware that it is a game. And I don't worry that anyone playing the game will walk away from it more racist or homophobic than they already were. They might actually laugh, see the ridiculousness of the game's stereotypes and walk away from it less prejudiced than they were before. I do hope that in future installments the game continues their critique of cultural stereotypes by turning it on its head (i.e. having a macho gay gangbanger or a female gang leader who takes advantage of her men).
Finally, know that unless you actually sit down and play the game, most gaming fans will refuse to take you seriously.
And rightfully so.
I'm not really sure where to start with The Lost Turntables comment... i also don't have my time this morning but i did just want to quickly comment about the absurdity of his response. My favorite line of his was:
"Reading any more into it is kind of silly."
If that isn't accepting sexism as the norm i don't know what is.
Oh and check this out: http://nocookiesforme.blogspot.com/2008/04/oh-right-grand-theft-auto-is-coming-out.html
(and he is a gamer...)
"If that isn't accepting sexism as the norm i don't know what is. "
Listen, you can kill anyone in the game. You can walk into the burger joint and shoot the short order cook, you can run over a cop, you and land a helicopter on a dock worker...you can do all kinds of awful things to all kinds of people. The fact that you can kill the hookers has nothing to do with the fact that they are hookers or that they are women. If the majority of the women in the game were hookers then you might have a point. However, GTAIV features several strong female characters as supporting characters, and several slimey disgusting sex-crazed ones as well, the same goes for the male characters in the game - the whole spectrum is represented.
What about everything else I said, how exploiting the "otherness" of Niko Belic is a moot point since every game before it (which all featured American characters) featured characters that behaved the same or worse? How about it's portrayal of men as violent thugs? What about how the game portrays sex with hookers (as a disgusting and morally empty act)? Or what about my defense of the medium as a whole? Saying that all video games feature "androcentrism, exclusivity and extraordinary violence" is an absurd statement if I ever heard one.
And have you actually sat down and played the game? If you haven't then you have no room to talk about anything in it.
You say:
"Stamp an "M for Mature" rating on it and move on."
I ask:
What alternative would you offer? Should games like GTA be outlawed? That would be rather offensive to the Constitution, no?
You say:
"Young men all over the country (and beyond) will learn that the value of women is their capacity to provide male orgasm."
I say:
Yes, because I am sure that GTA alone is much more influential than all of the other socializing forces in play in society. I'm sure that actually meeting and interacting with women in real life has a much less dramatic effect than GTA on influencing men's attitudes towards women.
I am pretty sure I addressed all of your concerns in my most recent post, The Lost Turntable.
Actually I think you'll find if u beat up (or even push women) about in the game men come and help them.
Sorry you might have to rethink your jam rag lesbo rantings
I find it amazing that people can complain about this game. There's nothing wrong with the game itself, it's only the people playing the game that are simulating murder and violence. You can play this game forever without doing those types of things, that's how it's designed. Complaining about the game is like complaining that someone is whistling a dirty tune. It's all in the mind of the beholder.
Hey whats that i hear
oh its just an idiot who cant tell the difference between reality and games
also you seem to think that freedom of expression, and freedom of speech take a back seat to feminism
what if Michelangelo didn't paint the ceiling of the Sistine chapel because it showed angel breasts. the whole thing is ridiculous.
and OMG XENOPHOBIA!!!!!!!!!!!
Jesus you think that a videogame is seriously going to make people more afraid of immigrants. no one is afraid of immigrants, they just hate that don't pay taxes
if you don't like the game then there is a simple solution to that problem. just don't buy it. (or move to Australia where i probably isn't released yet) when you play the game you don't think of those kinds of things, you don't think about race, or feminism or anything. all you care about it is hijacking some guy's car
Go make us some sandwiches.
What are you doing out of the kitchen?
You really need to get over yourself. People like you suck the joy out of everything because you think you know what is better for people than themselves.
And you never even played the game?!
Have fun being the old, lonely, senile cat lady, because most men will not put up with your non-stop bullshit.
"Feminism is a failed experiment. You wish for equality when it benefits you, but stand up in arms when you don't have doors held open for you. You cannot have it both ways." - zcicecold
If you have not played GTA 4 then kindly shut the fuck up becasue you have no right to critique the game.
Its like saying Canada is bad, but if have never been to Canada how can you know?
As well everytihng is in the eyes of the beholder if you hate GTA 4 or what you claim it represents that much then make your complaints known to the maker of the game Rockstar.
As well to comment on your comment about eastern europeans and the fact the Bellic may or may not have been white. All eastern europeans or Slavic peoples are white.
Given the beliefs of some Slavics you better not question the whitness thing to loudly.
Also I have to give mad props to the lost turntable for speaking the truth and I know a lot of you feminists dont want to hear that.
Bottom line dont bitch about GTA 4 unless you have played it for a minimum of 10 hours and if you are unwilling to do that then go burn your bra and fuck off.
Where to start? First of all, it looked to me like Samhita's post was largely about the fact that "not only are the sex scenes very real looking, most of the women are killed shortly after forcibly performing sex acts." It's not just that the game is violent- it is. Yeah, you can kill pretty much everyone in GTA. But, there was a choice made about which characters you could pay for sex with and then murder, and, hint- it wasn't the characters with penises.
WHAT THE FLYING FUCK?
the prostitutes are only killed if they player attacks them, like anyone else. If "most" of them were killed (bullshit, I never killed one, for instance), then it's the players fault, not the fucking game.
OMG SOMEONE WAS SHOT, LETS DESTROY THE GUN INSTEAD OF THROWING THE CULPRIT IN PRISON
See?
And OF COURSE "there was a choice made about which characters you could pay for sex with and then murder, and, hint- it wasn't the characters with penises."
THE CHARACTERS ARE HETEROSSEXUAL MEN, OF COURSE THEY WON'T HAVE SEX WITH CHARACTERS WITH PENISES AND KILL THEM.
Are you really so fucking dense? This inane commnet would make sense if the character was a gay/bissexual man, but HE'S NOT. SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT TO HAPPEN.
"And, really, this attitude that, because she's complained about the treatment of women she must necessarily also complain about the treatment of men or it's a double standard? It's bullshit. It's a game made by men targeting a male audience about a male character who spends a lot of time doing terrible things to other men. There are complaints to be raised there, for sure- but Samhita, a woman, is under no obligation to discuss them given that the game *also* features nasty treatment of women, too."
Of cousre she's not under obligation of discussing it, she only likes to discuss about things that she wants to. Like a little child that only wants to play catch up because it's the only game s/he's good at.
"7. If it is true that Bellic does not exclusively have sex with prostituted women, then I gladly retract that statement."
You find that out like 15-20 minutes into the game. Try to research before saying things. Out of all the character in the game, Bellic is the one that treats women better.
What's with this "game made by men, for men, that incentives violence against women"?
Do you seriously think there were no women among the developers? Or that women don't enjoy playing it? Heh.
And just WHERE the game "incentives" violence against women? No one tells you to beat up women because it's fun.
I am not sure what post all of you anonymous commenters are reading but you make reference to many things that I didn't say in my post and none of my regular commenters did either... How are you finding this site and why spit such venomous rage at one person's opinion?
Q-What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?
A- Nothing. You've already told her twice.
Cortney, a link to your blog post was recently posted on the GTA IV boards at GameFaqs.com. I have a feeling that's where all the hateful comments are coming from.
I can't say that their disrespect for your largely uninformed opinion is completely unjustified though. A little knowledge combined with a lot of education is a bad thing. I can see how your choice of graduate study has prompted you to jump on the feminist bandwagon and condemn this game without personally experiencing it first. Not a very wise thing to do, Cortney.
I won't point out all the weaknesses of your argument; "The Lost Turntable" has already done that. I'll just tell you that, your feminist agenda towards this game is greatly exaggerated, because there are quite a number of female characters in Grand Theft Auto IV who are portrayed as intelligent, and possibly even as domineering. One woman is actually portrayed as a God-fearing person who suffers the wrath of her thuggish husband (the latter of whom is quickly killed).
In fact, for every female who is portrayed negatively, about five men are portrayed as thugs, gangsters, and crackheads. Grand Theft Auto IV may have bad effects on society, but you're barking up all the wrong trees. I believe you've let your education overtake your intelligence, caused you to jump on the bandwagon and make a bunch of gross generalizations. If you want to gain a better understanding of how video games and popular entertainment affect women's issues, direct experience and observation of the issue in question is a necessity. In other words, playing the game for several hours before analyzing it will serve you better than making semi-educated opinions based on hearsay.
By the way, in case you're interested, this is the message board in which your blog post was linked:
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=933037&topic=43542543
Im so sick of people whining about this game who have never actually played it. 1st off your a hypocrite 2nd off you are the ones who are putting these ideas in peoples heads. In GTA4 the game never once has you go kill or even have sex w/ a hooker. (its not part of the plot). Yes you can do it , but you can do that in real life too. thats just putting freedom in an open ended game. I fully agree w/ the lost turntable.
WOW GOOD FOR YOU, YOUR ANGRY AT AN INANIMATE OBJECT, YOU CLEARLY MADE THIS POST TO BE FLAMED. GO BACK TO WRITING ABOUT THE OXYGEN NETWORK AND LEAVE YOUR VIDEO GAME REVIEWS TO THE PROS.
try researching before you make slanderous remarks against the game. all your doing is making rockstar more money.
I read the whole thing. I will not tell you to go make a sandwich or cook a roast. Instead, I'm going to point out a few things.
I am scared to live in a culture where this is considered a viable form of entertainment. The protagonist of Grand Theft Auto IV, Niko Bellic, ****'s women, seemingly all prostituted women, and then brutally murders them immediately afterward if he so desires. Bear in mind, of course, that 'he' is controlled by the player. Young men all over the country (and beyond) will learn that the value of women is their capacity to provide male orgasm. That is all.,
Exactly. Niko is controlled by the player. That means Niko is a puppet. An empty soul. As in: It's not his fault that he wastes his cash. Don't blame anyone other than the players, and really, you should'nt blame the player. Where do you get the "Seemingly all prostituted" women" part from? There are prostitutes, yes. And, the game is realistic about the prostitutes, being that they only come out at night in the dirty parts of town. Now, as for brutally mudering the prostittues, get over it. People are like that. IN A GAME.
I am angry that abuses of women are not taken seriously; are not seen as major social problems. In this culture of domination the murder of a prostituted/raped woman cannot be taken too seriously. Yet in video game culture it is not seen as a problem. Stamp an "M for Mature" rating on it and move on.
Ok. skip this paragraph, and go down to the next one you wrote. You clearly stated that you're no VG culture expert. What the hell do you know of VG cultures not taking womon's exploited rights as a problem? Ok. Now about prostitution, on R* depicts this, because they're cool like that. No really. In case you have'nt noticed the past 2 years, Hillary Clinton has been trying to ban violent video games for this reason. It's obvoiulsy a problem to a blind monkey, unless you just like being left in the dark like this. Moving on...
It seems worth examining the otherness of Bellic here as well. Admittedly, I am no expert in gaming or gaming culture, I have only played a few in my life and have never been amused by their seeming androcentrism, exclusivity and extraordinary violence. Bellic is a Bosnian immigrant in search of "The American Dream." I think it is relevant that in a game produced and developed by plenty of white men, Bellic is depicted as 'foreign' and/or not white. It enables white American men to play the game and distance themselves from the extraordinary violence that they are enacting upon women and other men. "Oh American men do not murder, rape or pay for sex!"
What. Are you joking? Is this a joke topic? Is tha the image that you get when they made Niko an illigal immigrant? If so, then you should leave the country, because it's all over the place. Perhaps you're suggesting that Peter Griffin was made to be Catholic, so Christians can say "Thank god that I'm not fat and stupid," because that's what you're suggesting.
In a time when immigration is such a heated issue, Grand Theft Auto IV must be placed within its proper cultural context. It is not an accident that Bellic is a violent, over sexed, thuggish immigrant.
All that crap is false. It's not an accident, and it's not on purpose. It just happens. Like you and I being born as boys/girls. (Maybe people can be mature enough not to joke about it.) All Niko wanted was to live the american dream. he just had to go through a lot of shit before he could get to it. Hopefully, you know what it's like to sell out. That's what Niko had to do.
While the link posted on gamefaqs.com is probably responsible for most of the immature comments, it is how I found this site, I have to apologis for the pathetic display of sexism. However, I can understand why they would be annoyed by your blog. The fact is that GTA is not a game based on killing women. It is true that murder is the main basis for the game There is a reason and if you had played the game you would understand why. The act that your can have sex with prostitutes and then kill them is a moot point. There is no necessity to kill them. Most of the citizens can be killed to be robbed. In the same way that killing prostitutes can be killed to recover money, so can other people that you give money to such as shop owners or taxi drivers. I think that this is the first time that the main character has not been American except for GTA London.
As a Brit, I do find alot of racism towards British people in-games, alot of them are portrayed as incredibly up their own backsides. But I am not insulted as I can accept that there was once some truth in the matter. The same can be said however for French being cowards, American being incredibly fat, irish being stupid. The same can be said for women. The sad fact is that the majority of prostitutes are women in real life and therefore in the game.
I can understand the reason for your comments but, if you actually played the game, instead of listening to idiots like Jack Thompson, then you would understand the reason for many of the things you can do in-game. I did not once solicitate a prostitute in the game even after completing it.
Truthfully, the game takes a sideways look at a virtual city based on several REAL American cities and then basically just stuffs it full of humor, sarcasm, and fun, there is nothing to argue over here.
Your time would be much better spent trying to solve some of the worlds ACTUAL problems, (like hunger or poverty) rather than coming into gaming forums to spread your close-mindedness disease.
Oh, btw, I don't think that anyone has mentioned that not only do millions of WOMEN play video games, but the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of gamers are OVER 25 years old. I'm not sure how much "growing up" they have left to do, but surely they must be beyond the influence of ANIMATED VIDEO GAME VIOLENCE by now.
Hey, once again I'd like to apologize for some of the more immature comments on here. GameFAQs at its finest...
However, your original post was quite a fine example of blatant ignorance.
I just wonder how you can be so passionately against something that you've obviously not researched whatsoever?
Also, I'm about to blow your mind...
I played through this entire game without picking up (and certainly never killing) one single prostitute. I spent far more time answering in-game cell phone calls from the girls I had met on a dating site (in-game) who wanted to go see comedy shows or go out for a drink.
Hell, there are guys over on the GameFAQS board trying to get through this game without even ever killing ANYONE. Please stop generalizing about us. You don't like it when people stereotype you, right?
I am a woman and I am a gamer. You admit to not being into gaming. That's fine, we all have our likes and areas of interests. I ask that if you're going to bash this game, consider looking at the Tomb Raider series. It is an EXTREMELY popular game that has a strong woman female character. And it has been popular with men as well. To be a feminist is not simply about seeing what wrongs are being commited against women, but it is to bring out wrongs that are being committed to human beings in general.
Your 'review' is bunk. If you're going to get angry at something, at least know what you're getting angry at. If you'd played the game you might see that the object is not to defile and destroy as many women as possible. But I guess a feminist wouldn't actually want to know much about what she is commenting on otherwise her stereotypes may not hold weight. There are very few stereotypes that I agree with, but one is that all feminists are angry, uptight, ignorant wenches who can only get dates from submissive, feminine men. That seems to hold true in most cases.
Wow, I'm amazed by all that hatred in the replies to your post. Interestingly, it proves a point, too... that sexism is invisible to those it favours.
Nah, Irene, it proves that video games are invisible to ignorant people who like to discuss them without actually having played them.
It might also suggest that such kind of women irritate men and literally invite sexism upon themselves...
The point is obvious: if you had actually sat and played (or even watched) GTA IV for several hours, you would realize that the game is not demeaning towards women any more than it is towards men.
NOT AT ALL.
I am 14 years old and go to high school. My dad bought a brand new copy of GTA4 as a present for me. I was thrilled with it because I knew the success of previous GTA games. The thought of killing someone on it had not even crossed my mind because I was driving around.
Killing many of the people in the game is an option, not a rule. If a police officer attacks you, you attack back. If someone throws a punch at you, you fight back.
Your description of a bestselling game has one major mistake. You didn't check all of the games features.
You can kill lots of people in the game, some for missions, some for defence. I see no reason why you should get angry just because you can kill women like you can kill men.
So its wrong to screw hookers and kill them to get my money back? And all immigrants are here to ruin our society? MY GOD!!! Really now; do you believe the crap that you typed? People who bash these games and claim that they promote violence, racism, and hate crimes are wrong. The game is aimed at adults who should be at a point in their life where their views are already their own. Kids who are able to play it and get "corrupted" by it are the normal losers who grow up like that anyway. Their parents are responsible for letting them play this type of game, and parents are responsible for their kids when they commit real life crimes. I've never been arrested and I grew up playing violent games that had alcohol and drug use. I blame my proper upbringing on my parents; a game should not affect a person in anyway that could get them in any form of trouble. On a side note, were you sheltered as a child? One of those kids who couldn't watch anything but lifetime movies?
Nonsense, complete and utter nonsense. The game has specific missions where you must execute people, have gunfights with police, ect. By your logic, our "young men" are being trained to rob banks, and battle swat teams. Nowhere does it goad or reward you for abusing women. Also, the game series has a varied cast of main characters, including a TWO WHITE MALES who are more ethically questionable than Niko. The game explores issues like immigration in an intelligent way that makes you feel for and relate to the character, who deals with discrimination and is forced by circumstances into a criminal lifestyle. Hands on research next time please...
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